[bikernut101]

This document includes the provision for direct access and other changes.

BN



Document

[KildareMan]

proinnsias, on 25 October 2010 - 03:29 PM, said:

Pete, that seems correct to me ...

Under 35kW (nigh 47bhp) AND under 0.2 kW/kg

Any bike can be restricted to in/around 46-47 bhp, however ensuring it's not a bike that started with 98bhp or higher is going to be a bugger !
Also, the bike can't have more than an original 0.4kW/kg and a new 0.2kW/kg

So you can't restrict an R1200GS, but an R1150GS restricted will be fine ! (for example)

P

There are plenty of bikes with under 100bhp. It's only an issue for the loolars who seem to believe they must have the mostest horsepower for it to be a good bike.

[ridertraining]

pillphil, on 26 October 2010 - 07:15 AM, said:

Why direct access for over 24 year old's only?

Did you read the document?? Under 24's figure heavily in the KSI stats.

[proinnsias]

KildareMan, on 26 October 2010 - 08:25 AM, said:

There are plenty of bikes with under 100bhp. It's only an issue for the loolars who seem to believe they must have the mostest horsepower for it to be a good bike.

KildareMan - I completely agree ... however the and also takes a few marginal bikes out of the bracket - a D'oh is marginally above the 0.16kW/kg, but at 54bhp it's over the 35kW, so would need a marginal restriction to be legal, despite being well under the 0.2kW/kg limits ... That said, a D'oh is perfectly adequate for most day-to-day biking uses ..

Going up in the world though, modern bikes (like cars) have ever-increasing bhp outputs ... to the extent where the same engine in the same car starts life as 110bhp a few short years ago, and now puts out 173bhp in some guises (DW10 2.0 HDi Diesel, if anyone cares) - the same is true of bikes - where 90bhp on an R1100 / R1150 was acres of power a few short years ago, the new R1200 puts out over 110bhp ... and they're not even sportsbikes !

I can understand the requirement for restriction - and its' benefits ... I can even see the argument for setting hard numbers and upper-limits to the size of bike that may be restricted (these make a certain degree of sense in terms of the hard-number upper-limits). However, as motors become even more powerful, even at the low-end, it will soon reduce the number of bikes that may be restricted ... unless manufacturers begin bringing out a swathe of 46bhp motors to cover the new cross-Europe regulation.

That said : 46bhp per 250kg = 184bhp per ton - an average saloon car (Mondeo size) weighs in at about 1500kg, and puts out 90 - 180 bhp depending on the model - in power-to-weight terms - to match a restricted bike, it would have to be making a whopping 276bhp

Who cares if you can't have a 'busa at 21 ... in fairness - 2 years passes quick enough - and you might be able to handle the power once you've learned the craft !

P

[KildareMan]

proinnsias, on 26 October 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

KildareMan - I completely agree ... however the and also takes a few marginal bikes out of the bracket - a D'oh is marginally above the 0.16kW/kg, but at 54bhp it's over the 35kW, so would need a marginal restriction to be legal, despite being well under the 0.2kW/kg limits ... That said, a D'oh is perfectly adequate for most day-to-day biking uses ..

Going up in the world though, modern bikes (like cars) have ever-increasing bhp outputs ... to the extent where the same engine in the same car starts life as 110bhp a few short years ago, and now puts out 173bhp in some guises (DW10 2.0 HDi Diesel, if anyone cares) - the same is true of bikes - where 90bhp on an R1100 / R1150 was acres of power a few short years ago, the new R1200 puts out over 110bhp ... and they're not even sportsbikes !

I can understand the requirement for restriction - and its' benefits ... I can even see the argument for setting hard numbers and upper-limits to the size of bike that may be restricted (these make a certain degree of sense in terms of the hard-number upper-limits). However, as motors become even more powerful, even at the low-end, it will soon reduce the number of bikes that may be restricted ... unless manufacturers begin bringing out a swathe of 46bhp motors to cover the new cross-Europe regulation.

That said : 46bhp per 250kg = 184bhp per ton - an average saloon car (Mondeo size) weighs in at about 1500kg, and puts out 90 - 180 bhp depending on the model - in power-to-weight terms - to match a restricted bike, it would have to be making a whopping 276bhp

Who cares if you can't have a 'busa at 21 ... in fairness - 2 years passes quick enough - and you might be able to handle the power once you've learned the craft !

P

Once this is europe wide then the manufacturers will produce to the market. It's the manufacturers forever pushing the power up. There is life outside of sportsbikes.

[pillphil]

ridertraining, on 26 October 2010 - 09:58 AM, said:

Did you read the document?? Under 24's figure heavily in the KSI stats.

And will continue to do so, however, putting a direct access test between them and a bigger bike will force them to improve their skills.

If direct access isn't suitable for under 24 year olds, then it's not suitable for over 24 year olds.
I'm 24, I have an unrestricted licence. I have it because I've been driving for the past three years. For the Direct access test to have any relevance, it would have to bring me to the same skill level that I've got now(or higher, I certainly wouldn't mind doing some proper training), but in just 6 months.

If it can do that for a 24 year old, it can do it for an 18 year old. And if it can't do that, then it's meaningless and shouldn't be introduced.

This post has been edited by pillphil: 26 October 2010 - 01:24 PM

[ridertraining]

Point well made, but you avoided the issue of maturity - the wisdom of age - even 24 year olds have more than they did at 18.

For years people have been arguing FOR direct access here - your comment could be read to argue AGAINST it.

[ridgeback]

direct access...will it made a differance?? iam not to sure..quite a few riders i know have never stuck with the rules as they are now,doubt they will regardless of whats in place.. first time rider at 18 and the same and 28,who would you honestly say was a little more wise..i still dont think that safety is the main focus here,
make the test harder,get rid of the learner permit.(only full licence riders/drivers on the road).and maybe have to do a days training every 2 years or so..bhp figure is kind of pointless to worry about imo,12 bhp or 120bhp can still do the same damage in the wrong hands..the focus should be on the person the the machine ..
the whole EU safety bullsiht is getting out of hand imo.whats next they get to pick the colour and the make for you ....

[pillphil]

ridertraining, on 26 October 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Point well made, but you avoided the issue of maturity - the wisdom of age - even 24 year olds have more than they did at 18.

For years people have been arguing FOR direct access here - your comment could be read to argue AGAINST it.

I'm all for direct access, but I do feel if it's as tough as it needs to be it should be tough enough to apply to everyone.

Although three years ago I'm sure I would have had a different point of view.

Perhaps some slight resentment that they want to change the law when it no longer apply's to me?

[proinnsias]

Right - can we focus a little here :

First up - regardless of the rights and wrongs of direct access / power-to-weight ratios / restriction etc - they're already written into the EU Directive we are being required to implement.

The consultation process is around what optional parts we'll introduce, and what we'll ignore ... presumably there is some document somewhere that the RSA have yet to publish alongside their request for comment as to what the proposed Irish solutions are ...

Has anyone got access to / sight of said document - that would be the one we need to critique (with a mind on the parts of the EU directive we must transcribe into national law by a set date)

Answers on a postcard (virtual) to the usual address !

P

[pillphil]

The only thing's they want opinions on is what ages the different licence's apply to. And since the only reduction being offered is AM down to 14, which they say they see no reason to do, I think everything else is about as reasonable as it's going to get.

Link to PDF

[proinnsias]

Thanks pillphil !

It's well worthwhile giving that document a quick read ...

In summary the questions the RSA would like us to answer (along, presumably with other commentry) are as follow :


Feedback Questions on Plastic Card Licence:

Q1. Once card licences are available should the phasing out of paper licences happen as quickly as possible or just when existing licences expire and are being renewed?

Q2. Would you favour the voluntary surrender of paper licences for replacement by a card licence before the expiry date?

Q3. What kind of additional driver information would you like to have included on the microchip in the card licence?

Feedback Questions on Motorcycles:

Q4. What are your views on keeping the minimum age for a Moped licence at age 16?

Q5. Should a separate tricycle or quadricycle test licence category be introduced and if so why do you believe it should?

Q6. What are your views on keeping the minimum age for an A1 licence at 16, an A2 licence at 18 and an A licence at 20 with previous experience?

Q7. What are your views on allowing a training course option as an alternative to a driving test for category A2 and A - this will only apply where the person has held a licence for two years in the preceeding A1 or A2 category respectively?

Feedback Questions on Category B - pulling of heavier trailer

Q8. Do you agree with the proposal to facilitate the inclusion of code 96 on a category B licence if a driver undergoes the EB practical test with a vehicle/trailer combination not exceeding 4250kg?

Q9. Do you agree that training to facilitate the inclusion of code 96 entitlement is not feasible?

[proinnsias]

Bumpity Bump !

get your votes in now before polling closes ...

Your feedback note might just be the one that couns !

P

[Linda]

proinnsias, on 26 October 2010 - 08:02 PM, said:

Right - can we focus a little here :

First up - regardless of the rights and wrongs of direct access / power-to-weight ratios / restriction etc - they're already written into the EU Directive we are being required to implement.

The consultation process is around what optional parts we'll introduce, and what we'll ignore ... presumably there is some document somewhere that the RSA have yet to publish alongside their request for comment as to what the proposed Irish solutions are ...

Has anyone got access to / sight of said document - that would be the one we need to critique (with a mind on the parts of the EU directive we must transcribe into national law by a set date)

Answers on a postcard (virtual) to the usual address !

P

Very little wriggle room on the 3rd directive most of it is compulsory. It took a lot of campaigning to get the bike section more flexible.

[proinnsias]

Quote

Very little wriggle room on the 3rd directive most of it is compulsory. It took a lot of campaigning to get the bike section more flexible

Question on that - what is MAG's ideal position on the flexible portions of the implementation :

From Link to PDF

Quote

Feedback Questions on Motorcycles:

Q4. What are your views on keeping the minimum age for a Moped licence at age 16?

Q5. Should a separate tricycle or quadricycle test licence category be introduced and if so why do you believe it should?

Q6. What are your views on keeping the minimum age for an A1 licence at 16, an A2 licence at 18 and an A licence at 20 with previous experience?

Q7. What are your views on allowing a training course option as an alternative to a driving test for category A2 and A - this will only apply where the person has held a licence for two years in the preceeding A1 or A2 category respectively?

Personally :
Q4 and Q6 - I find both perfectly reasonable
Q7 makes sense to me

I'm curious on Q5 ... as I've no real opinion either direction !

P

[Linda]

proinnsias, on 12 November 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

Question on that - what is MAG's ideal position on the flexible portions of the implementation :

From Link to PDF



Personally :
Q4 and Q6 - I find both perfectly reasonable
Q7 makes sense to me

I'm curious on Q5 ... as I've no real opinion either direction !

P

Funnily enough MAGs answer to Q4 is that we would prefer to see the minimum age lowered to 14 as they have in France. Various reasons for this lowering the age limit means that young riders on highly restricted bikes get to learn road sense at a much earlier age.As they have learned to share the roads with other users it makes for more observant people on the road as they have learned observational skills at an earlier age. Many of them will continue to use bikes.

Q5. Trikes should be tested under the motorcycle test and issued a restricted license similar to passing your car test in an automatic. Quads should be the same in catogory B.

Q6. Given our answer to q4 then yes this is our preferred option.

Q7.Training beats testing any day

[HatchA74]

Firstly - Apologies if I'm dragging up a long dead thread.

Secondly (and more importantly) I've a question regarding "table 2: proposals for Motorcycle Licensing" in the pdf file posted above.

Some background info - I'm 36, looking at getting a bike for the first time and I've no legal experience with them.

Am I reading it correctly when I see that, as I am over 24, if I sit a "direct access test" I am then allowed to ride motorcycles greater than 35kW - without the need for two years on a restricted license?

It's been twenty years or more since I was last around 'bikes and when I appled for my provisional car license back in '98, I never ticked the motorcycle box (more fool me, I know). I passed my car test first time in '99 (Oct 12th to be precise). I read a post by Linda in another thread regarding "date of first provisional" etc and I also wanted to ask if I could effectively "backdate" the motorcycle section on my license? (I'm guessing no, at this stage). God loves a tryer

Thanks for any help/info/advice.

Steve.