[Kelpie]

Don't think this is a repost.

It makes scary reading!

Link

More

Trial

Without hearing all the facts, it's hard to know what really went on but it all seems very odd.

This post has been edited by Kelpie: 16 April 2011 - 10:56 PM

[aln]

thats a bit weird, not knowing all the facts I'm keeping my trap shut.

RIP to the bikers.

[Kang]

thats a sad news. R.I.P to the couple.

but Dangerous Driving? to the other lads? whatever they were speeding or not, I think its a personal thing. thats the risk u take driving a bike.

[Catchmeifucan]

Terrible terrible tragedy.May they rest in peace!!!!!

[Shinwacker]

It seems they are trying a new law brought out in 2006. It must be worded in such a way that people within a group of motorbike riders are responsible for each other. The uninsured driver is more or less guilty because he has no insurance, or so it seems.

This does indeed raise quite a few questions, was the car driver at fault at all, or why was the car driver not responsible he/she was also there?

The facebook campiagn sums it up from the bikers point of view, the people killed where responsible for themselves, he was driving.

It seems to be a bit like the drinking law in Oz, if you get to drunk the barman is responsible. The whole world is turning upside down.

Shins

[Linda]

Yep as Shins said in their infinite wisdom in the UK if you ride as part of a group and have an accident then the whole group is to blame!

The thinking behind it is that when a group of bikers get together then they egg each other on and as we are so easily led we do dangerous things as we can't think for ourselves as bikers we only have a group mentality.

Is it any wonder I'm so active in MAG with thinking like this to contend with

[Hatcho]

I had heard about this case a few weeks back on another (uk based) forum. I find it a shame that personal responsibility and accountability are gradually being erased from modern society. New laws which protect (or pass on the blame for our foolish behaviour to another) our stupidity are becoming more and more common. We used to laugh about these sort of stories from the US. People drying their dogs in the microwave and then suing the manufacturer as they didn't say you shouldnt do so in the instruction book. And winning. Now its happening on our own doorstep.

I'm not belittling the passing of two people - its a terrible tragedy no doubt about it. But I see no logic in apportioning blame to their fellow riders. This may seem harsh in the circumstances but the only people possibly at fault are the rider of the crashed bike and the driver of the car. Between them they caused the death of the pillion passenger.

When I head out on the bike I'm my responsibility. No one else's. Mine. If I go fast no one's forcing me to. That's my hand on the throttle. I choose to take the inherent risk that comes with riding the bike. And the choices and decisions I make whilst on the bike which increase or reduce that risk are my choices. There's been times where I've eased off due to the pace/standard of riding/simple gut feeling. Never ignored my instincts on that one. Many moons ago whilst leading a group of five bikes through Spain, I pulled over and all the others stopped with me. I was flaked - not riding well and knew if I continued to push it things would go wrong. I felt no shame in saying I needed a break and needed to slow down too. Just one of those days where the mojo was taking a day off.

My point is, in group riding, you are still your own biker. They are still your corners, your overtakes, your lifesavers. Go with the flow if your comfortable with it. Peel off and just cruise if you're not. Simples.

[kevinb99]

These will be some interesting points to consider - if you have a group of 20 bikes they could be spread out over a mile or so.
What constitutes a group? 2?3?
How are they going to define riding a group?
What about charity runs when there is a fatality, as has happened here? Are the whole 200-300 riders responsible?
How close to each other to do have to be to influence other riders safety?

[giller]

Hatcho, on 17 April 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

I had heard about this case a few weeks back on another (uk based) forum. I find it a shame that personal responsibility and accountability are gradually being erased from modern society. New laws which protect (or pass on the blame for our foolish behaviour to another) our stupidity are becoming more and more common. We used to laugh about these sort of stories from the US. People drying their dogs in the microwave and then suing the manufacturer as they didn't say you shouldnt do so in the instruction book. And winning. Now its happening on our own doorstep.

I'm not belittling the passing of two people - its a terrible tragedy no doubt about it. But I see no logic in apportioning blame to their fellow riders. This may seem harsh in the circumstances but the only people possibly at fault are the rider of the crashed bike and the driver of the car. Between them they caused the death of the pillion passenger.

When I head out on the bike I'm my responsibility. No one else's. Mine. If I go fast no one's forcing me to. That's my hand on the throttle. I choose to take the inherent risk that comes with riding the bike. And the choices and decisions I make whilst on the bike which increase or reduce that risk are my choices. There's been times where I've eased off due to the pace/standard of riding/simple gut feeling. Never ignored my instincts on that one. Many moons ago whilst leading a group of five bikes through Spain, I pulled over and all the others stopped with me. I was flaked - not riding well and knew if I continued to push it things would go wrong. I felt no shame in saying I needed a break and needed to slow down too. Just one of those days where the mojo was taking a day off.

My point is, in group riding, you are still your own biker. They are still your corners, your overtakes, your lifesavers. Go with the flow if your comfortable with it. Peel off and just cruise if you're not. Simples.

Everything you say is entirely true and correct and that is the way I ride myself. I have no desire to prove the size of my manhood whilst out on the bike, I prefer to come back alive.

However:

Was this always the case? Was I like that when I was younger? I'm not so sure. Yes, it is our individual responsibility to look after ourselves when riding in a group and make our own decisions. But, I think it is naive of people to think that riders getting sucked in beyond their ability (in group riding) is a phenomenon that doesn't exist. I have been a victim of it in the past myself (not resulting in an accident) and I have witnessed it in others, many times, also.

I'm not saying that I support the idea of shared culpability, I am just suggesting that people do not denounce the existence of something that IS a fact of life, especially among males. Saying that we are all responsible for ourselves on a group rideout is entirely correct but depending on the age, maturity, skill level of some of the members in the group, it is sometimes more of a theoretical notion than one that seems to be practised.

Just to put some perspective on it, for example:

I'm out for a spin with a 19yo guy (friend of family or whatever) who is new to biking and looks up to me as an 'older' experienced biker. I proceed to ride on as if I'm out either on my own or with friends of similar ability. I pull in 10 miles down the road and the young guy is nowhere to be seen. Turns out he ran wide on a left hand bend trying to keep up with me. Can I honestly say, 'ah well, he was responsible for himself'. No, I don't think so.

[nab301]

Kelpie, on 16 April 2011 - 10:54 PM, said:

Without hearing all the facts, it's hard to know what really went on but it all seems very odd.

A conclusion of sorts I guess


http://www.visordown...ared/19654.html

[Inadzuma]

Good sense prevails - but there's a lesson there for everyone.

zuma

[Linda]

Good response by the judge. Totally agree with Zuma

[Blade RR]

Inadzuma, on 08 December 2011 - 12:03 AM, said:

Good sense prevails - but there's a lesson there for everyone.

zuma

Linda, on 08 December 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

Good response by the judge. Totally agree with Zuma

+1 tragic, tragic accident.

[Jem]

Common sense prevailed - but Im sure this was a hellish time for the bikers accused.

Not only did they loose their friends but the added stress of being blamed for their deaths?!
This will scar them for life.

[KaosTheory]

Missed this thread initially so only seeing it now, fair play to the judge for coming to the logical conclusion.

However, I just want to pick up on a point Giller made above that in a roundabout way, explains the way rideouts on IBF had developed over the years (I do not want another flame war about rideouts please)

Actually, f*ck it, I ain't opening that can of worms again.

[wesifumi]

By wesifume at 2011-12-08

[KaosTheory]

spot on Wesi!

[the_sad_punk]

His bike had brakes and he had free will, bullsh*t attempt at nanny state crap that. Glad to see common cop on prevail.