[YogiBear]

This post comes short on the heels of a recent post relating to pricing on brakes pad difference between UK and Ireland, so please forgive me if it appears if I am just jumping on a band wagon here.

The background first! Yesterday, needing tyres for my GS I thought I would try someone new, just to see if how they would be and if their service was any good. The dealer I am talking about is a certain BWM dealer (Not Platinum Motorcycles) in the Bray area whom I understand to have reasonable if not a cheap reputation. Knowing this I expected to pay a small premium for the tyres, but hey, I heard they have free snacks served on a Saturday for waiting customers and what more could a bear ask for?

I confirmed a price via telephone, hopped on the bike with Booboo in tow on her Gladius, expecting to have tyres fitted to both. On arrival they quickly wheeled my bike into the workshop which, by the way is cordoned off with big signs, "No Customer Access". In the meantime Booboo is on the showroom floor being brain washed by the Metzler/Pirelli rep telling her that the tyres she wants are not right for her and she should try something else. The net result of this is that when finally convinced by them of the tyre she needs as opposed to what I had suggested they proudly inform her that they do not have the sizes for her bike, but will order them in. Strange, though they did have sizes in the tyre I had been suggesting. Unfortunately at this stage she had her heart set on the Angel STs and would not budge so off to Cotters we would go. Strange way of doing business if you ask me, I thought they would have tried to bag her right there and then, but rather let us go somewhere else. Just so you know I was suggesting a slightly sportier/softer tyre Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa, which I had used myself on my K1300S to great effect giving me great grip and a very reasonable mileage of just under 5000 mls/8000kms.

Back to my bike and why I really was so angry. After 10 minutes or so of waiting, Paddy, one of the folk from the dealer comes into the showroom with a broken socket saying that they had broken it on the wheel nuts on my bike while trying to remove them. He announces that they are going to have to heat the wheel hub to remove the nuts and was I ok with this. My answer was that it would have to be done sometime and today may as well be it.

Almost an hour later they still had not finished and we decided to go for a cup of coffee up the road. On our return, Paddy proudly announces that he has good news and that the wheel was taken off and they would soon be finished. What he so cleverly forgot to mention is the surprise I was to get when they printed my invoice.

In addition to the price for fitted tyres quoted (Euro 305) to me on the phone they had the cheek to add Euro 15 for tyre disposal (I know this is a standard charge but should be included when quoting), and wait for it............................... Euro 65 extra (Bear in mind they already charged Euro 25 per tyre for fitting) for the difficult wheel removal plus Euro 25 for the socket they broke.

Now, I understand the business logic behind trying to make money on a job, but I don’t understand the logic of making sure a customer never, never, never returns for future business. By this I mean they made an extra Euro 90 out of me yesterday which will be the last they will see from me and following that my rant on here about a poor experience.

Far be it for me to suggest that you folk don’t use this dealer as that remains your choice, but honestly I do believe that they don’t deserve business from anyone I know if that is the way you get treated as a new customer.

[proinnsias]

Hmm ... reading through this I see a few things

• Tyres seem to have been reasonably priced; more-or-less in line with Iggy's expectations (when you include fitting / disposal), and roughly in-line with my experiences on that size/type
• Tool breakage ... ... Most proper manufacturers of tools do a "lifetime warranty" on them .. they break, they get replaced. Certainly Teng and Snap-on do, hell, even Halfords Professional range has that - so charging for replacement is a complete pish-take
• Maddy Padocks (love it Linda!) are a former BMW Dealership (they no longer have the franchise, rumours abound as to the reasons, but I don't know, so won't comment here !). They should know the GS, and its' foibles - how easy/difficult it is to remove a wheel, and there should be no surprises - the bikes aren't exactly difficult to work on, even if the wheel removal requires a bit more work than usual.
• Curiously the advice to BooBoo seems to be spot-on, I'd certainly put more "touring" than "sport" oriented tyres on a Gladius - but then, I prefer to get more than 5000 miles from a pair of tyres

Whatever about the €65 labour charge, which they should have swallowed, but is arguable either way - the tool charge is a complete farce ... I doubt most main dealers would be that cheeky - let alone independents !

P

This post has been edited by proinnsias: 18 April 2011 - 12:24 PM

[Super10]

[name='YogiBear' timestamp='1303021934' post='586363']
... ...
but hey, I heard they have free snacks served on a Saturday for waiting customers and what more could a bear ask for?

I confirmed a price via telephone, hopped on the bike with Booboo in tow on her Gladius ...
In the meantime Booboo is on the showroom floor being brain washed by the Metzler/Pirelli rep ...
...After 10 minutes or so of waiting, ... ...

He announces that they are going to have to heat the wheel hub to remove the nuts and was I ok with this. My answer was that it would have to be done sometime and today may as well be it.

(seems yes, you agreed to the extra work, no? ...)

Almost an hour later they still had not finished and we decided to go for a cup of coffee up the road. On our return, Paddy proudly announces that he has good news and that the wheel was taken off and they would soon be finished. What he so cleverly forgot to mention is the surprise I was to get when they printed my invoice.

[/]


[ name='Zx10 Rick' timestamp='1303082450' post='586595']
agree with you on all points there man, but still ask the same question in my post above!

bugs me that people let themselves get raped price wise, then moan about it after..
[/]


[ name='jamesobrady' timestamp='1303084830' post='586596']
Bad stuff there. Sorry to hear about your bad experience Greg. Any idea why the wheel was supposedly so difficult to take off?
[/quote]

four nuts/ washer a la



plus salt+ winters

+ 105Nm per nut

Iggy, on 18 April 2011 - 08:15 AM, said:

OK, thanks for answering my questions. In the interests of fairness I will try to address the various issues arising from the OP and some comments then posted. To nail my colours to the mast, I had my own motorcycle workshop up until end of Dec., last. I am still associated with the trade but simply as an employee now. I have no connection with the shop in question here. However, I have experienced the trade from both sides of the counter. My reason for replying to this is that this type of post is usually one-sided, can do damage to the business in question ( sometimes unwarranted ), and sometimes needs a response introducing a little balance. Hopefully this reply will do this.

Prices and charges :

1. Initial quote of €305 for a set of EXPs, fitted is a good price. So, no issue there.

2. €15 disposal charge. Average charge would be €5 for a set of tyres. However, as there are no controls over these charges, some workshops ( including car shops ) will charge extra for inconvenience, storage, administration etc. Others may include the charge in the quoted price. But does seem excessive. Tyres must be disposed of legally and in accordance with regulations. Workshop must pay for this disposal and there are annual returns made to the local council or TRACS. So, there is a cost involved in tyre disposal. Anyone who thinks this is stupid must agree with the illegal dumping of 100s of thousands of tyres of all sorts throughout the country.

3. Broken tools charge. An odd one. Not so long ago, I busted a rachet spanner while try to extract a seized bolt. C'est le vie.

4. €65 additional labour. I have always allowed 1 hour to change a set of tyres on standard bikes. If it went a little over that, no problem. If less than an hour, my benefit. Swings and roundabouts. However, if there are
significant issues delaying the process by say 30 minutes plus, there would be an additional charge. However, the client would be informed of this and the charge would be unlikely to be €65 unless the machine was in a very bad way and required major surgery. So, €65 additional charge seems excessive, based on the time line in your post.

I would conclude that 1. the type of additional charges ( with the exception of the broken tool charge ) would be reasonably common and 2. but unusually excessive in this case.

Now in relation to the difficulty in removing the wheel, this in not uncommon. Specifically in relation to BMWs, the wheel bolts are generally of two types : Standard bolts and torx head bolts. Irrespective as to whether bike is new or old, bolts can be hard to remove. With torx heads, if you apply excessive force you can 1. Damage the heads or 2. Snap the torx bit. With standard headed bolts, a good impact air gun will usually do the job but not always. If the bolts do not come free using normal methods, then heat application is a common method of resolving the problem. Other posters here seem to think that this wrong but it is not. In the case of most BMWs there are no seals or bearings involved in the wheel or near the area of heat application. With any luck, the heat will expand the alloy surrounding the bolt and/or melt any threadlock applied and the bolts should come free.
If it was indeed a socket that broke, then the bolts were standard heads and 1. The socket was low-quality or already damaged 2. There was mega seizure or overtightening of the bolts. Either way, broken tools = a hazard of the job. In my own experience, I have never had a socket break. Other tools and bits, yes but never a socket. My only conclusion here is that the operator had enough sense to stop the job when he realised that damage could be done with further brute force and ignorance. Regarding the quality of tools in the shop concerned, tools wear out, break, crack, etc., even the best of them.

Regarding the advice given to BooBoo re : type of tyres, it was correct. The tyres you had advised are for hyper sport/trackday bikes and really are over kill on a Gladius or similar bike. Unless BooBoo does a lot of tracks days, then the Angel or any brand name sports-touring tyre is perfect for that bike. There is nothing wrong with the rep ( if it was the rep - Ian Duffus, Scottish lad, rarely here as he is based in UK ) giving this advice. In fact, that the shop had'nt got tyres suggested and did'nt try to push something else on to BooBoo is a positive. Many complaints have been made about shops selling customers something they did not want or inappropriate to the bike, the usage, etc. just to make a sale. So, I would knock not this aspect.

Overall, I would tend to agree that the experience was negative in the main. However, ZX10 Rick makes a valid point. Did you challenge the cost there and then ? If you did'nt do so immediately, did you contact the shop afterward, when you got over the shock. allowing the business to remedy/explain ? If so, what was the response ? If not, you should have done so before before posting here. The point has been made many times on this forum that, before posting any bad review, that that the individual try to resolve the issue first and then post the full experience. I am surprised that no mod has pointed this out.

Finally, re : tyres prices, if I was still operating operating my workshop my price for fitting the EXPs would have been €335 inclusive of VAT, disposal, etc. Therefore the original price of €305 was good. Pity other factors spoiled the deal. It is unlikely that I would have a problem removing the wheel, certainly not warranting an extra charge.

Alternatively tyres for GS and of equal or better quality would be Bridgestone Battlewings at €310 or the new Dunlop TR91s at €290 ( from all customer reports a great tyre ).
These prices are still current in my new employment at this time.




done so

Shinwacker, on 18 April 2011 - 08:55 AM, said:

Just to point something out Iggy, ...



... ...

... I found your piece was just an attack on Yogi ...




... I could go on and on about your post, but I'll leave it there.

Shins

[ name='Zx10 Rick' timestamp='1303120790' post='586626']
I think it good that members share info with each other about different experiences at various bike shop/dealers all over the country and have no bother at all seeing this kind of thread going up.

Iggy, being a former shop owner himself, of course would probably find it a bit offensive when he see's a business getting a bad reveiw, birds of a feather and all and has probably been on the recieving end of unfair comments by previous customers that he has dealt with, hence his responce, show me a business that hasnt had this happen to them!!

We have seen threads like this a thousand times before. And im sure it wont be the last..

The prices at the current shop in question are, in at least a couple of area's, at minimun, excessive. And totally ridiculous in one case! However, after running my own workshop for a while, for cars, I am only too well aware, that in some case's the small jobs that should only take 15-20 mins, can often take twice the time due to unforseen problems like a siezed bolt or whatever the case. The fact of the matter is siht happens, mostly in the workshop, thats what they are there for in the first place,

but if a customer has issues with his bill then he should address them at the counter before handing over his hard earned!

Ive no doubt Yogi is an honourable man Shins, and of course he has the right to post his experience here. But why not have sorted his issue out there and then. It would have made for interesting reading to hear the responce of the dealer in question, when asked how he could justify charging for the Broken socket, amongst other things..........
[/]

Shinwacker, on 18 April 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

Rick, you could well be on to something there mate. However some people when they get the bill just pay it, even if it's to high in there opinion. I have often done so in the past as I'm no good at toe to toe fighting with people in shops etc. I assume Yogi is of the same opinion.

Shins

proinnsias, on 18 April 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

Hmm ... reading through this I see a few things

• Tyres seem to have been reasonably priced

; more-or-less in line with Iggy's expectations (when you include fitting / disposal), and roughly in-line with my experiences on that size/type

• Tool breakage ... ... Most proper manufacturers of tools do a "lifetime warranty" on them .. they break, they get replaced. Certainly Teng and Snap-on do, hell, even Halfords Professional range has that - so charging for replacement is a complete pish-take

• Maddy Padocks (love it Linda!) are a former BMW Dealership (they no longer have the franchise, rumours abound as to the reasons, but I don't know, so won't comment here !). They should know the GS, and its' foibles - how easy/difficult it is to remove a wheel, and there should be no surprises - the bikes aren't exactly difficult to work on, even if the wheel removal requires a bit more work than usual.

• Curiously the advice to BooBoo seems to be spot-on,

I'd certainly put more "touring" than "sport" oriented tyres on a Gladius - but then, I prefer to get more than 5000 miles from a pair of tyres
Whatever about the €65 labour charge, which they should have swallowed, but is arguable either way - the tool charge is a complete farce ... I doubt most main dealers would be that cheeky - let alone independents !

P

will follow

This post has been edited by Super10: 19 April 2011 - 12:32 AM

[jamesobrady]

Well, if it took an extra hours work to remove the wheel, and 65bob is the hourly rate...thats that then. On the one hand, 65 bob is a small amount to pay to save from getting a wrecked rim. Charging for the broken tool is just poor business. Would have refused to pay that myself outright, if nothing else, just on the basis that it is tax write-off-able in any case....he doesnt have to pay for replacing his tools essentially-so why should you ?

Super10, on 19 April 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

plus salt+ winters

+ 105Nm per nut

Should have used Teng

[pugwash]

Muddy Paddocks...nuff said...w**kers

[K Kid]

I guy in Limerick bought a new BMW.
He met another guy on a run who said - oh you
got my bike on the road!!!!
Apparently the original owner had dropped it
and being overly well paid just traded it back
and got a new one.

It was settled on the steps of the court.

I don't know who the dealer was!

I bought a 2nd hand BMW K75 several years ago.
Decided to go a full expert service.
The boot on the drive shaft was charged but not changed.
The indicator button was broken on return.
Had big row over €1 of plastic.
Charged for 2 bottles of fork oil as the forks needed
tablespoon of fork oil more than one bottle.
(I'm sure they buy it in drums)

I go back every month for a service ! !
Just can't remember the place right now.

[nab301]

Super10, on 19 April 2011 - 12:12 AM, said:

[name='YogiBear' timestamp='1303021934' post='586363']
... ...

plus salt+ winters

+ 105Nm per nut

Afaik the 1200gs is 5 stud wheel and should be 60Nm , maybe this was the problem I wonder were the bolts replaced if they wer e that tight?