[fabio]

Right guys I've been on to a few people about this already but thought I'd put an auld post up anyway but thanks in advance to Larry and Andy Gaw who were good enough to be of assistance over the phone yesterday while I was stuck.

I took the Bandit for a spin yesterday up to the Burren seeing as it was a nice day and I'd never seen the place before. Nice warm and dry day too so all in all an excellent day was being had. On my way home I stopped in Ennis to fill up the tank so I could do a non-stopper back to Cork. After paying for the fuel I went out to the bike and it wouldn't start for me.

When I turned the key to "on" the neutral and oil pressure lights would come on as normal but when I hit the starter button there would be one single click heard from around the battery (starter relay?) and the oil and neutral lights would then go off (or fade really quickly). They would also fade off if I tried to turn on the lights without touching the starter button.

At this stage I knew I was pretty stuck so I asked another motorcyclist for a push and we tried that in first gear which didn't work so I retired for an ice-cream as he had to head away to work. After advice from Larry and Andy Gaw I pushed the Bandit up a hill near the petrol station, took a break up there, tried to bump start it on the flat in 2nd gear and it almost worked. Tried again as the hill declined more, got more speed and had it in 3rd gear this time and it fired up.

So I got it back to Cork but tried a few things out on the way home - the lights all worked fine, although I kept the revs up big time at traffic lights as I was afraid of it cutting out again. The right side indicator was flashing faster than usual at high revs, when I flashed the hi-beams the revs would drop by about 500rpm really quickly but then go back to normal again. And when coming through the Lee Tunnel I gave it a bit of a rev and it sounded like a semi-backfire coupled with a fair drop in revs. Strange.

Any takers on this one?

[BONZOID]

Battery OK?, connections OK? reg/rec OK? If you,re stuck Nev, gimme a shout.

[Shinwacker]

Sounds like regulator rec of faulty alternater if that what's it's called in a bike. I would bet there is dirt/oil in the alternator or the regulator is on the way out. Eletrics aren't as easy to get sorted as the engine is. vstorm will be along shortly and he'll have a better idea than me.

Shins

[EatinGTarmaC]

Shinwacker, on 02 July 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Sounds like regulator rec of faulty alternater if that what's it's called in a bike. I would bet there is dirt/oil in the alternator or the regulator is on the way out. Eletrics aren't as easy to get sorted as the engine is. vstorm will be along shortly and he'll have a better idea than me.

Shins

The battery was already flat (needing a bump start to get the engine running) so if the RR or alternator was done for it'd be unlikely it would have made it back to Cork.

As usual, check the fuses in the charging system, the regulated and unregulated output and you'll have a better idea.

[fabio]

Hmmm I'll go and check the fuses I suppose although that means off comes the rear cowling. For the third time in a week (cos I did the valve clearances and carbs last weekend and was working on the back brake during the week necessitating the rear cowling to come off then too).

Regulated and unregulated output? How do you mean EatingTarmac? I'm a numpty when it comes to electrics unfortunately...

Oh and I threw in the battery from my bro's Innova into it today, it's a very news battery and in good nick and nothing happened at all with the Bandit. Now in fairness it is a smaller battery but still...

[fabio]

BONZOID, on 02 July 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

Battery OK?, connections OK? reg/rec OK? If you,re stuck Nev, gimme a shout.

Nice one Col, will do

Battery seemed to be ok, no apparent problems anyway, reg/rec I'm not sure, connections to battery are clean and good. Gonna have to check all of the fuses, the ones I quickly checked in Ennis as I scratched my head seemed fine. Would it bump start despite a fuse being gone?

[FZRMutt]

I suspect your battery.
Check the connections first.
If they are good then the batterys probably sulphated. This means it will give 12volts with no load but drop to under 9.5Volts when under pressure.
Put a multimeter on the battery and just turn the headlight on. If you get a big drop in voltage i.e. under 9Volt You need to renew the battery.

Renewing the battery would involve visually checking the electrolyte level and inspecting the battery for white sulphur deposits on the cells. Check that there is no gunk shorting the plates at the bottom. Then check electrolyte levels with a hydrometer. Once you are happy with everything top up with distilled water and leave it on a trickle charge preferably with a battery charger with a pulse charge or desulphate option.
Once charged, check the battery under load again. I.e Check voltage while trying to start bike. If you still get a voltage drop out after all that the battery's spine has probably corroded or cracked making sure you will never get the full amperage. Then Chuck it and get a new one.

[jamesobrady]

Its fairly simple Nev....its either your RR, your stator, or your battery.
RR can fail by not giving out 14.5 volts to charge battery. It can go higher or lower. Higher will fcuk your computers, lower will just not charge your battery. In either of these cases, your bike will run fine(unless its high enough to kill your eectronics), but your battery will be killed.
If your battery is fubar it just wont charge, or will charge, but just wont hold charge for long.
If your stator has an open winding, your RR will sometimes put out less voltage(about 12-13), and your battery will be weakly charged and will die long-term.

First check, Get a good battery(a car battery and jump leads will suffice if it saves you buying a battery).
Start bike, check voltage over battery terminals. If its 14-14.5 your reg.rec is good.
Stop bike. open plug RR goes to..there will be as an example 3 white wires and a red wire..and a brown(or other) in some cases.
Check the resistance between white, to white, to white. They should read (consult manual) about .2ohms resistance. If there is an open circuit, or a high resistance, your stator needs to be rewound/replaced.

IF those check out good, your battery is the problem. You most likely have a sealed battery in the bandit, so a new one is probably your only choice.

[EatinGTarmaC]

jamesobrady, on 02 July 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

In either of these cases, your bike will run fine(unless its high enough to kill your eectronics), but your battery will be killed.

The bike won't run fine if it's not charging the battery and producing it's own power. Once the battery power drops (which isn't very long once the engine is running, shorter still with more electrics turned on) the whole thing becomes very unresponsive, until the engine putters to a stop.

Once this happens, even with either a jump start or bump start, it'll make no difference. Bike will die again a couple of minutes later.

This post has been edited by EatinGTarmaC: 03 July 2011 - 12:23 AM

[Ozzy]

fabio, on 02 July 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

When I turned the key to "on" the neutral and oil pressure lights would come on as normal but when I hit the starter button there would be one single click heard from around the battery (starter relay?) and the oil and neutral lights would then go off (or fade really quickly). They would also fade off if I tried to turn on the lights without touching the starter button.

I had the same Clicking from mine and the power would disappear it turned out one of the connections was loose on the battery had to change the blot but it sorted the problem out

[fabio]

Nah the bolts to the battery are grand Ozzy...if only it could be that easy a fix

Update:

Checked the battery with a multimeter and it reads as 10.86 volts. I then turned on the ignition (put key to "on" position) and turned on the headlights but again the battery read 10.86 volts. Didn't make a difference it seemed. Of course no lights actually did come on!

Next up is to borrow the neighbours jump leads, connect up the family's car battery and see what that gives me.

This post has been edited by fabio: 03 July 2011 - 02:58 PM

[fabio]

Another update. Just put the car battery on to the bike there via jump leads while I have the bike's own battery out to charge on the Accumate I borrowed. The bike didn't start, the starter relay didn't click, nothing happened. Voltage read from the + and - of the car battery as connected to the bike reads as just over 12 volts and same again even if I switch on the bike ignition and lights. Now to put the bike battery back into the bike, push start it and then check the voltage on the bike battery as the engine runs...

[fabio]

3 attempts at a push start and it's a no-go....the engine tries but fails to fire up

[FZRMutt]

Check your battery connections again. Check them coming from the battery and all along the leads.
10.5 volts for a battery is low!
Which suggests to me either the battery is getting no juice, is screwed, or you have blown a fuse.
You mentioned putting in another battery a smaller one which worked!
That means everything else is O.K.
What condition is the battery in, Is there a smell of Bad eggs off it?


If it needs it give the battery terminals a wipe with a wire brush.

This post has been edited by FZRMutt: 03 July 2011 - 06:11 PM

[fabio]

The smaller battery actually didn't work FZRMutt unfortunately. The battery itself was good but didn't power anything on the Bandit.

I put the battery on charge for a small bit and it reads about 13 volts now. Battery is a sealed unit in good nick seemingly, no smell and the Optimate yokey doesn't say it's bad.

[jamesobrady]

EatinGTarmaC, on 03 July 2011 - 12:21 AM, said:

The bike won't run fine if it's not charging the battery and producing it's own power. Once the battery power drops (which isn't very long once the engine is running, shorter still with more electrics turned on) the whole thing becomes very unresponsive, until the engine putters to a stop.

Once this happens, even with either a jump start or bump start, it'll make no difference. Bike will die again a couple of minutes later.

Once the engine is running at and over the rpm that lets the stator deliver enough AC that the RR can change to 12-14.4v DC the bike doesnt "need" the battery.
Think of a bike without a battery that relies on kick-start...we only have batteries to give us electric start, and to act as a capacitor to smooth out voltage spikes for the more sensitive modern electronics. Once the stator is spinning enough, the battery is redundant. Hence why it gets charged.....and why a push started bike works with a low batter-as long as you dont stall it

This post has been edited by jamesobrady: 03 July 2011 - 09:55 PM

[jamesobrady]

The car battery is smaller than the bike battery ?
I tried start an 1800cc goldwing off a Cinqucento once...that didnt work....

It sounds like your battery is screwed Nev. The optimates arent perfect...i've had a few dead batteries that it will say is"good" and charge away for as long as you leave it connected...but the battery is dead as a doornail.
Why your battery is dead is the next step....

If I was in your shoes, I'd get a new battery, and start from there. If the bike doesnt start, there is a fuse issue. If it does start, its time to move onto checking your RR and alternator stator measurements to make sure all is ok and that its just a battery that died on you.

This post has been edited by jamesobrady: 03 July 2011 - 09:54 PM

[EatinGTarmaC]

jamesobrady, on 03 July 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

Once the engine is running at and over the rpm that lets the stator deliver enough AC that the RR can change to 12-14.4v DC the bike doesnt "need" the battery.
Think of a bike without a battery that relies on kick-start...we only have batteries to give us electric start, and to act as a capacitor to smooth out voltage spikes for the more sensitive modern electronics. Once the stator is spinning enough, the battery is redundant. Hence why it gets charged.....and why a push started bike works with a low batter-as long as you dont stall it

A bike that has a kick start doesn't need a battery because the circuit is complete without one. On modern bikes with a battery, it very much "needs" one to complete the circuit (older models can vary). It'd be dangerous to wire it in a way that it doesn't. What I think you meant to say is that the bike doesn't need power from the battery once the engine is running, and I didn't doubt that, and it's not what I said.

If you read again:

EatinGTarmaC, on 03 July 2011 - 12:21 AM, said:

The bike won't run fine if it's not charging the battery and producing it's own power.

Charging the battery is just a nice side-effect. If it's not producing power the engine will die. I've had a dead RR before and it wouldn't run for love nor money.

Since he was able to push start the bike (and keep it running) means the rr or stator isn't dead, but doesn't mean the RR is fine. If it's over-charging it could be bump started, but'll eventually cook the battery leading to the same result: a battery which can't turn the engine over.

jamesobrady, on 03 July 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

If I was in your shoes, I'd get a new battery, and start from there. If the bike doesnt start, there is a fuse issue. If it does start, its time to move onto checking your RR and alternator stator measurements to make sure all is ok and that its just a battery that died on you.

If I was in his shoes, I'd get a new battery, and start from there. If the bike doesnt start, check the fuses, starter motor cables, starter switch & kill switch.

EDIT: Typo!

This post has been edited by EatinGTarmaC: 04 July 2011 - 07:20 AM

[FZRMutt]

If the battery was lying up uncharged for a long time it's definitely going to be sulphated and have reduced capacity.
As already said you will need to check, alternator, Rectifier N Regulator, Shorts in the wiring etc.
If your skills aren't up to it get a friend (Or spanner head)to check it out for you.
If the other battery had 75% of the Amp Hours it should have been O.K. to test the bike with.
It's also possible that if your Revc/Reg is gone it will discharge your battery as well.

I think everyone here wants to help, but it's hard to do a diagnosis over tinternet.

[fabio]

Nice one guys for the replies, I realise ti does take time to write these and post these so I do appreciate it.

I actually think the battery is ok but I am open to it not being so. I tried starting the bike off of the Toyota Corolla battery so that should do it...1.4 litre engine like. Anyway didn't work.

So now I am going to go out and test the resistance of the regulator/rectifier...